Yes, cause every debate usually starts and ends with Warhammer, and usually shortcircuits because the definition then becomes too narrow, so this essay is meant to widen your horizons, and thus becomes shocking.
Well written and insightful. I thought I was writing dark fantasy, but it appears it’s between grimdark and brightdark. Thanks for this in-depth analysis, it’s helped me solidify the direction I was taking with my WIP
Thanks for a very thorough look at grimdark fantasy. I tend more towards the high fantasy end but found this interesting. It might inspire some new reads.
A very interesting discussion. But the roots of grimdark are also in the same medieval revival that gave rise to Lewis and Tolkien. Other late-Victorian and Edwardian fantasists who did not share Tolkien’s Christian faith emphasized the darkness at the heart of the folkloric tradition. Lord Dunsany, William Hope Hodgson and E.R. Eddison, author of Worm Ouroboros tried to revive the spirit of sagas. For various reasons, they were not as successful as Tolkien but are getting more recognition today.
Tolkien dropped The New Shadow because it was going grimdark. That's not a successor problem. The source itself made a conscious choice to pull back. Brightdark isn't nostalgia for Tolkien. It's nostalgia for a Tolkien who decided not to go there.
I very much enjoyed the breakdown of the illiad, it was nice to see the text in a new light. It’s funny because yes the good guys lose and all their heroes (bar Aeneas correct me if I’m wrong) die.
It’s pretty rough reading. Although hector does come out with some excellent quotes ‘fight for your country, that is the best omen’ came out of nowhere for me.
Extraodinary essay. The section on geas as metaphysical trap is the sharpest part of this essay. The idea that your virtues become the mechanism of your destruction —that you don't fall because you're weak but because you're bound— is the thread that connects everything here, from Cú Chulainn to Job. It maps a tradition I keep circling in my own work: in Mediterranean Gothic, the equivalent of the geas is often liturgical. The prayer that must be completed, the vow that can't be broken without consequence. The saint's feast that becomes the site of violence, the procession that seals the community's fate precisely because it's sacred. Ritual as binding. Same trap, southern light. Glad to see someone tracing the full lineage instead of starting at Abercrombie.
Thank you! You nailed what I was reaching for: “virtue becomes leverage”. And I love the Mediterranean Gothic comparison… ritual as binding contract, sacred time as the trap. I also circle around this in my norse writing!
Abercrombie— I ducked him because he’s like dropping “have you heard the beatles?”—too modern. Or asking Chet Baker fans if they like “my funny valentine”—too easy.
The Abercrombie-as-Beatles comparison is perfect. And the fact that you’re circling Norse material while I’m pulling from Mediterranean liturgy means we’re probably digging the same well from opposite ends. I’d read that crossover essay.
if you do not include a benevolent God in the picture and a moral ground work, you are departing from reality. A large chunk, perhaps the most fundamental chunk of reality. Yes, evil exists. Grimdark as you describe it is the world to broken humanity without the ability to reach God. Yes all is hopeless without a personal relationship with God.
But also yes, God has not abandoned us, and if that is not at least partially clear to the reader, then there is no hope and the vision of reality you are presenting is fundamentally flawed.
There is a delicate balance between grimdark and moral clarity. In the words of Master Samwise the youtuber, "Good and evil are simple things, but the people who choose them are not."
Without God in them, no stories are worth telling.
The essence of grimdark is writing for a world that doesn't grant you any favors. It's not inherently nihilistic, nor is the requirement to write about the nastiest human beings in the existence. It's about have choices having consequences, that pain is real, and that the good doesn't automatically win. This is the raw material of reality.
This is actually the core of the essay--that it comes in many shapes, and is not bound to any of them.
I don't know how many grimdark stories are rooted in God. Often they are godless, or they are written with pagan gods in mind. But grimdark can have God at it's core. That's why I quoted the Ecclesiastes, which is both a powerful and enlightening text, but also shows you how grimdark fits in with the lithurgy. You don't have to give up morality to write grimdark.
You're not wrong in your assessment of Grimdark automatically going for misery, violence and nihilism. A lot of authors misinterpret it, and call their work grimdark when they're really just writing bleakness for its own sake.
In a historic light, the genre is realism with a hard edge.
Thank you! Ok, that makes sense. I must have been thinking of those 'edgy for edgynes' sake' writers. It just goes to show how bad writers leave a bad taste in the mouth and a bad rep for a certain genre! LOL
Thanks, but so what if a few of the thumbnails are AI? The alternative would be stock images, and they’re often sloppier & thematically incoherent. And since I only use them for thumbnails, and not in the articles themselves, I don’t see the harm.
I do use them when they’re appropriate & use real art when it makes sense to pay.
It's good to have principles, but realize that this is more nuanced than "everything is stolen". There are AI engines that steal (obviously bad -- midjourney is unclear here--meaning they won't say, meaning they're using unlicensed art) and engines that only use licensed art/public domain (adobe firefly, getty). Is the latter also a problem?
I do agree that artists doesn't get paid enough on the whole. That's undisputable.
You nailed it. The people that use “grimdark” as a label for lazy, nihilistic violence-porn are missing the point entirely. Thanks for writing this.
Thank you, and I couldn’t agree more!
You already know it will be shocking for readers?
Yes, cause every debate usually starts and ends with Warhammer, and usually shortcircuits because the definition then becomes too narrow, so this essay is meant to widen your horizons, and thus becomes shocking.
Pretty straightforward, Bane.
Loved this, especially the point that grimdark is older than the label and lives in the sagas/tragedies.
I wrote something recently from the “grimdark as lived experience” angle (systems, accountability, community outrage) if anyone wants a shorter companion piece: https://open.substack.com/pub/authorannepengelly/p/are-we-living-in-a-grimdark-world?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web
Well written and insightful. I thought I was writing dark fantasy, but it appears it’s between grimdark and brightdark. Thanks for this in-depth analysis, it’s helped me solidify the direction I was taking with my WIP
Thanks for a very thorough look at grimdark fantasy. I tend more towards the high fantasy end but found this interesting. It might inspire some new reads.
A very interesting discussion. But the roots of grimdark are also in the same medieval revival that gave rise to Lewis and Tolkien. Other late-Victorian and Edwardian fantasists who did not share Tolkien’s Christian faith emphasized the darkness at the heart of the folkloric tradition. Lord Dunsany, William Hope Hodgson and E.R. Eddison, author of Worm Ouroboros tried to revive the spirit of sagas. For various reasons, they were not as successful as Tolkien but are getting more recognition today.
Love it! Grimdark is such a cool genre, it’s a shame now the reality is sometimes darker than books
Tolkien dropped The New Shadow because it was going grimdark. That's not a successor problem. The source itself made a conscious choice to pull back. Brightdark isn't nostalgia for Tolkien. It's nostalgia for a Tolkien who decided not to go there.
Civilization is a thin veneer against which Chaos rails.
I very much enjoyed the breakdown of the illiad, it was nice to see the text in a new light. It’s funny because yes the good guys lose and all their heroes (bar Aeneas correct me if I’m wrong) die.
Some others too, Paris and Glaucus f.i., but overall the good guys lose big!
It’s pretty rough reading. Although hector does come out with some excellent quotes ‘fight for your country, that is the best omen’ came out of nowhere for me.
Extraodinary essay. The section on geas as metaphysical trap is the sharpest part of this essay. The idea that your virtues become the mechanism of your destruction —that you don't fall because you're weak but because you're bound— is the thread that connects everything here, from Cú Chulainn to Job. It maps a tradition I keep circling in my own work: in Mediterranean Gothic, the equivalent of the geas is often liturgical. The prayer that must be completed, the vow that can't be broken without consequence. The saint's feast that becomes the site of violence, the procession that seals the community's fate precisely because it's sacred. Ritual as binding. Same trap, southern light. Glad to see someone tracing the full lineage instead of starting at Abercrombie.
Thank you! You nailed what I was reaching for: “virtue becomes leverage”. And I love the Mediterranean Gothic comparison… ritual as binding contract, sacred time as the trap. I also circle around this in my norse writing!
Abercrombie— I ducked him because he’s like dropping “have you heard the beatles?”—too modern. Or asking Chet Baker fans if they like “my funny valentine”—too easy.
The Abercrombie-as-Beatles comparison is perfect. And the fact that you’re circling Norse material while I’m pulling from Mediterranean liturgy means we’re probably digging the same well from opposite ends. I’d read that crossover essay.
I fundamentally disagree. Grimdark as you present it the world of pagans--people who long for meaning but do not have God, and therefore, no meaning.
Tolkien's work will stand forever because it has the full picture -- both the glory of God and the hopelessness of everything else.
if you do not include a benevolent God in the picture and a moral ground work, you are departing from reality. A large chunk, perhaps the most fundamental chunk of reality. Yes, evil exists. Grimdark as you describe it is the world to broken humanity without the ability to reach God. Yes all is hopeless without a personal relationship with God.
But also yes, God has not abandoned us, and if that is not at least partially clear to the reader, then there is no hope and the vision of reality you are presenting is fundamentally flawed.
There is a delicate balance between grimdark and moral clarity. In the words of Master Samwise the youtuber, "Good and evil are simple things, but the people who choose them are not."
Without God in them, no stories are worth telling.
Without God, those stories are doomed to die.
Should we be writing THAT for our fantasy??
How's this for Grimdark? there is no way this is the end of everything.
https://www.thewisewolf.club/p/epstein-baal-child-sacrifice
The essence of grimdark is writing for a world that doesn't grant you any favors. It's not inherently nihilistic, nor is the requirement to write about the nastiest human beings in the existence. It's about have choices having consequences, that pain is real, and that the good doesn't automatically win. This is the raw material of reality.
This is actually the core of the essay--that it comes in many shapes, and is not bound to any of them.
I don't know how many grimdark stories are rooted in God. Often they are godless, or they are written with pagan gods in mind. But grimdark can have God at it's core. That's why I quoted the Ecclesiastes, which is both a powerful and enlightening text, but also shows you how grimdark fits in with the lithurgy. You don't have to give up morality to write grimdark.
Hmm...I think this shows how little I understand. Sorry for my violet reaction!
I will have to think about this some more. Thank you for explaining it to me!
So the point of grimdark is not to be nihilistic (though it includes that, too) but to be RElistic?
You're not wrong in your assessment of Grimdark automatically going for misery, violence and nihilism. A lot of authors misinterpret it, and call their work grimdark when they're really just writing bleakness for its own sake.
In a historic light, the genre is realism with a hard edge.
Appreciate your input!
Thank you! Ok, that makes sense. I must have been thinking of those 'edgy for edgynes' sake' writers. It just goes to show how bad writers leave a bad taste in the mouth and a bad rep for a certain genre! LOL
Loved this!
Thank you! I appreciate that!
This reads like AI slop voice
Thanks, but so what if a few of the thumbnails are AI? The alternative would be stock images, and they’re often sloppier & thematically incoherent. And since I only use them for thumbnails, and not in the articles themselves, I don’t see the harm.
I do use them when they’re appropriate & use real art when it makes sense to pay.
examples:
https://www.amazon.com/Norse-Scriptures-Complete-Mythology-ebook/dp/B0G3MN5NF5/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1DH9XHAZ4L0H&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.sMobMnMuF5QaXgIzxCArOo7AnywqW7IGIfbEi3-mucUflintdGMJw5CBCTqATpp88PdUyFP-vRS82IDiW8jSPazyO_knCseC0zGq_80ilm9b21rxgNuh3PpWOp7Rm-rby-eBSx393nzH54bLMVE8AZ7eMvTZUrG9EGzpn8S1HwVXiXm0LCHa48Bd5ZBnE8ZxH9BawNFmIp519xw95fAECJYS9gw9Ds6ePsVYWhd0X28.c17t3g3tI9M5KrDGnk4e4rQC_NJ_2xrGD8gS48aHWCk&dib_tag=se&keywords=norse+scriptures&qid=1772030055&sprefix=norse+scriptur%2Caps%2C341&sr=8-1 (paid art — and one of my favorites)
https://www.andersvane.com/p/the-burger-parable (stock art)
It's good to have principles, but realize that this is more nuanced than "everything is stolen". There are AI engines that steal (obviously bad -- midjourney is unclear here--meaning they won't say, meaning they're using unlicensed art) and engines that only use licensed art/public domain (adobe firefly, getty). Is the latter also a problem?
I do agree that artists doesn't get paid enough on the whole. That's undisputable.
I didn’t catch that, but I’m not surprised to hear Adobe getting caught for lying. Not a good company.